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5 TIME CHAMPS
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
here a good debate..since we have a bunch of debater on the site,do u believe it her right to do this???
hopefully i don't open a can of worms???

Flag Day
Lost in the Toni Smith Story Is Her Responsibility as a Member of a Team

By Frank Deford
Sports Illustrated

You have probably heard by now of Toni Smith, a senior on the women's basketball team at Manhattanville College. Smith has made it a habit to turn 90 degrees away from the flag while the national anthem is played before her games. She is protesting, she says, "the inequalities embedded in the American system," which embraces a rather large territory.

First of all, this is surely a coach's nightmare. To order a player to stand facing the flag is to immediately suffer charges of denying a student their right to freedom of expression. On the other hand, to allow a member of a team to go their own way violates the first tenet of teamwork, of being a part of the whole you have volunteered to join.

What would you do if you were Shawn Lincoln, the first-year Manhattanville coach? There's no easy answer, is there?

Well, I would tell Toni this: You have made your point, and I appreciate how fervently you believe in what you're doing, but you are one of us on this team, and once you put on our Manhattanville uniform you cede certain individual prerogatives. Once the game is over, you may protest in any fashion you wish, but you made the personal decision to try out for this team, so now you are one of us and you must respect us, as a group, even if you don't respect the flag that the rest of us do.

In a real way, it seems to me, the player is using the team, taking advantage of her teammates. The Star-Spangled Banner is played for the game, for the participating teams, and, as a member of the squad, she should honor that fact and not co-opt the opportunity for her own ends. We make all sorts of concessions to our freedom when we participate on a team, and although freedom of political expression may be higher on the scale than, say, obeying training rules, the principle is the same. Indeed, our courts have held that even high school athletes must accept being singled out for drug-testing because they choose to play sports, whereas drug testing is not constitutional for the entire student body.

Of course, it's also true that some coaches are bullies and despots, who misuse their authority, but being on a team is the ideal of sacrifice, and when an individual breaches that unity, that goal, then something noble is lost.

Having said that, it is also probably true that games -- and teams -- may have been co-opted for showy patriotic purposes. Whoever would have thought that the last refuge of patriotism would be the beginning of a ballgame? Myself, I rather like it that we find reasons to play our national anthem in common places of joy, such as stadiums and arenas. If The Star-Spangled Banner is only rendered on military or state occasions, or at funerals and memorials, we would come to not think so warmly of our anthem, wouldn't we? But too often lately, the anthem seems to have provided an excuse for other expressions, invariably more martial in tone than democratic. Specifically, the business of having a squadron of fighter jets swoop over the stadium as soon as "the land of the free and the home of the brave" has lifted into the air. In peacetime or wartime, I really don't think we need that sort of military display as a benediction to our games.

It's enough, I think, to face the flag and hear the anthem, together.
 

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joey'd is da man
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Who gives a monkeys about the star spangled banner?

I say burn it!
 

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Who cares, she isn't required to do anything like that. The league or her team may be able to take disciplinary action, but it's still her decision whether or not she "salutes" the flag. Same thing with a pro basketball player who refused to stand for the national anthem. While he should have simply out of respect, nobody can force him to. Maybe she should look for another country to live in if her current one is such a horrible place to be.
 

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She needs to go live in a different country maybe say Iraq so we can blow her up!!


Innes- How can you say who gives a monkeys about the Star Spangled Banner??? Just because you live in a different country you shouldn't disrespect our country.
 

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piranha 13 said:
She needs to go live in a different country maybe say Iraq so we can blow her up!!


Innes- How can you say who gives a monkeys about the Star Spangled Banner??? Just because you live in a different country you shouldn't disrespect our country.
And wanting to blow someone up is different...how? So she doesn't agree with all that the flag represents, I bet most people feel the same way but are too ashamed to say so. I don't agree with all of my country's policies either. She's protesting and is well within her rights to do so.

You folks do need a new anthem, this one's too bloody long!
 

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Thanks Innes, you confirmed my thoughts of you being a horrible person. It is not a matter of choice to stand before the flag... and i am so sick of these damn baby ass protesters... If you want to make a difference then do somthing to affect the future, If you are not helping to mold this future and nearly protesting what everyone else has poured there soul into then what good are you as a person? That flag stands for all her fathers, and the men who died for this country. I would break her damn neck if I ever saw that or anyones for that matter. What would have happened to a person who turned his back on the king 200 years ago... A peasant like that should know their place in the world.
 

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She's protesting and is well within her rights to do so.
That is not an american ideal... that is a BS distored european view of the world. If she has a problem she can write to her local legislature.
 

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An American ideal? I'm not following you. But from your statements you sound like a fascist or a socialist which is against what your ancestors fought for. Like it or not she doesn't have to do it, and doing something like breaking her neck just proves her right. It is attitudes like these that gives Americans a bad name. Instead of wanting to harm people who disagree with your country why not work on making it a better place? You do more harm than good saying such things.

Protests are a way to voice opinions, without protests a lot of changes would not have happened to your country and you wouldn't have a lot of the things you do. People have very selective memories, and when someone stands up for their beliefs or stands against what they believe to be wrong, well you've just shown us what happens.
 

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I think people are allowed their own beliefs, etc. but I don't think she should be disrespecting her team and coaches, etc. If she doesn't want to participate, stay in the locker room until it is over.

It would be amusing if that college were a community college. In which case, the government she despises would be paying more than $5,000 every year for her to go to school and get a college education and direspect her country.
 

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"Duty is the most sublime word in the english language" - General Rober E Lee. Saluting the flag is a duty, under millitary law you are required to salute a superior even if you hate his guts. The fathers of the revolution did not fight for the right to turn their back on everything that they had accomplished. The fact of the matter is I could care less if this attitude gives us a bad reuputation because we work harder collectively then any other country on the planet, while all europeans have to do is complain about how they are not being treated fairly. This spoiled brat is lucky enough to live in a place where she can receive a college education for playing a worthless game, when will she ever realize how fortunate she is?
 

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Then why isn't everyone thrown in jail? I never see anyone saluting other than soldiers. If she's commited such a heineous crime then toss her in the cooler, and that other basketball player too.
 

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Rhode Island Slut 2006
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I hate america, I hate christians, I hate people.

Since i dont agree with everyone else, i guess i should be shot, huh?

actually let me go into more detail, i dont per-se hate america, nor christians... but i do hate christians who frown upon others for not sharing the same religion same for any other religious "goers"..

as for this country, Im a very odd person, i would goto war for our freedom and lives, but i will not defend our structure by no means.

as for general people... well someone once said to me, "im not racist i hate everyone" Sure, there are people I dont hate.. Ones who treat me with respect for the person I am and support the way i want to be with no retractions.
 

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.pocketful of sunshine.
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For her to turn her back against the flag is a disgrace to what our country stands for. Maybe she doesnt realize what the National Anthem is really all about. Our National Anthem sybolizes many of things. Mainly that of the freedoms we have in this country. Freedoms that are very rare to come by any where else. She wouldnt even have the chance to be living her dream was it not for living here. There are so many opportunities that she gained by being an Amrican citizen and for her to turn her back against all that was "given" to her by her just being a citizen is just pathetic. If she doesnt like America and is going to continually disgrace our flag then she should just leave and go to where she thinks is better off.
 

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5 TIME CHAMPS
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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Ms_Nattereri said:
For her to turn her back against the flag is a disgrace to what our country stands for. Maybe she doesnt realize what the National Anthem is really all about. Our National Anthem sybolizes many of things. Mainly that of the freedoms we have in this country. Freedoms that are very rare to come by any where else. She wouldnt even have the chance to be living her dream was it not for living here. There are so many opportunities that she gained by being an Amrican citizen and for her to turn her back against all that was "given" to her by her just being a citizen is just pathetic. If she doesnt like America and is going to continually disgrace our flag then she should just leave and go to where she thinks is better off.
WELL SAID MS.NATT
 

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Lyle said:
I think people are allowed their own beliefs, etc. but I don't think she should be disrespecting her team and coaches, etc. If she doesn't want to participate, stay in the locker room until it is over.
agreed!

but she probably wants to make a big deal out of it... i say just ignore her!
 

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...just back for a bit to catch up...
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....if you live in america, then you should respect the american flag and the national anthem...it doesn't mean you have to salute or believe in the ethics of this country, but its just out of pure respect to stand up for our flag or during the presentation of our national anthem

She needs to go live in a different country maybe say Iraq so we can blow her up!!
...wtf is this country's obsession with blowing sh*t up?
 

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If she doesn't believe in what the American flag stands for, fine, that is entirely up to her. But I dont see any need to turn away from it. Remain seated like everyone else who dont believe. For some reason this post really bothered me but I cant even explain it. Oh well.
 

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GARGOYLE said:
If she doesn't believe in what the American flag stands for, fine, that is entirely up to her. But I dont see any need to turn away from it. Remain seated like everyone else who dont believe. For some reason this post really bothered me but I cant even explain it. Oh well.
i think its pride for you country kicking in
 
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