[Sir Nathan XXI]

Why is it that the citizens stay in their house in Iraq when they know a war is going on and bombs and bullets are all around them? We see all these pics of innocent people being hurt. So why in the heck are they there to begin with. They should know enough to clear out when the army comes to their town, its not like the have much to leave behind (not many possesions, or dependable job). And in some cases they might be lying and were really an Iraq soldier or something, but who knows?

 

[Xenon]

There have been a lot of "civilians" that are actually Army.....but Nate you have to ask yourself....would you be willing to just drop everything, and run out of town and be a refugee living in mud and tents and sh*t? Its not that simple to just "leave". Remember this is a BIG city and there is plenty of room for people to hunker down and wait it out.

Its a shame about the civilian casualties though.

It just goes to show you how far the laws of war have come since WW2. Back then it was perfectly acceptable to kill hundreds of thousands of civilians to achieve the end of a war. Dresden, Berlin, Hiroshima.....all killed > 200k civilians. Back then EVERYONE was the "enemy", not just the soldiers in uniform. I know a lot of this has to do with the introduction of precision guided weapons but I like the trend that the world is taking.....

Too bad the terrorists didnt keep this rule on 9-11.

 

[Sir Nathan XXI]

These darn Iragis dont follow any rules, they use citizen shields, dress up as them, fake surrender, suicide bomb. Never do you hear anybody mention about how many died in the World Trade Center Towers, I think its a crock people make a big deal of it, and then dont care about our own people

But Mike my question comes from the stance they dont have a good life to start with, thats why I feel that way.

 

[hastatus]

Sir Nathan XXI Posted on Apr 9 2003, 02:52 PM
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These darn Iragis dont follow any rules, they use citizen shields, dress up as them, fake surrender, suicide bomb. Never do you hear anybody mention about how many died in the World Trade Center Towers, I think its a crock people make a big deal of it, and then dont care about our own people

But Mike my question comes from the stance they dont have a good life to start with, thats why I feel that way.

What actual experience do you have with war Nate other than TV commentaries? I'm curious.

 

[Innes]

many civilians have been shot when they were trying to leave and also where would they go? and how?

 

[Xenon]

But Mike my question comes from the stance they dont have a good life to start with, thats why I feel that way.

Your opinion of a "good life" is FAR different than theirs I am sure. In some places in the world, the "good life" is simply finding a dry place to lay your head. Its all relative. And I am sure most people would rather hunker down with the possessions they have collected with their life than run and hide and lose everything.

 

[Grosse Gurke]

There was a huge risk in leaving. If you were caught trying to flee the city you would have been executed. This has been stated many times by members of the population of Iraq, as well as defectors that currently live in the US. That is something the Iraq people needed to think about before trying to get out of the city and was it worth it to risk your family members lives or hope that the war did not come into your home.

 

[Neoplasia]

They don't leave because they will be shot, their family will be shot. Or worse. Saddam has been ruling the country since the late 70's via fear, violence and repression. Most people have never known live without. If there's a hint that he's still around many people will not speak out or try to do anything. There was a news clip of a man talking to UK soldiers and a press agency, saying his family would not show themselves on tv because they were afraid they would be punished for talking to coalition soldiers. They were happy the Brits were there, but were still afraid of retribution. After today you will see more people in the streets. It's not so simple as "if it's so bad then just leave" because they are frankly unable to, or terrified to try.

 

[Sir Nathan XXI]

I wasnt aware of the penalty of leaving, now I see, that why I asked, but Mike what I am trying to say is they dont have much to leave behind so it shouldnt be a big deal.

My knowledge of war is from reading research on effects of, actual biographies of soldier experiences in combat, and news reports. I have done a number of research papers on war, and the after effects on soldiers and civilians of the area, mostly Vietnam though

 

[Xenon]

what I am trying to say is they dont have much to leave behind so it shouldnt be a big deal.

I find your world view pretty appalling. Who are you to generalize what is "having much" is. You have absolutely no frame of reference to that end of the world. Just because they dont have fish tanks, ponies, huge houses, etc to leave behind doesnt mean they "dont have much". They have their homes, their clothes, their possessions, their family heirlooms, their roots, their pride. It might not be up to American standards of what is "much" but to them and their families, it is everything.

Am I completely off base here? Is anyone else noticing Nate's tunnel vision?

 

[Grosse Gurke]

Am I completely off base here? Is anyone else noticing Nate's tunnel vision?

No, I have noticed it also and I find it sad.

 

[Sir Nathan XXI]

it isnt tunnel vision, you just dont understand what I am saying, so I will drop it

 

[Grosse Gurke]

I understand completely, you were referring to material possessions. There is more to life than the acquisition of physical assets. It is sad that many have lost sight of that fact.

 

[Sir Nathan XXI]

if you want to go on that topic, I have donated many of my things to less fortunate people

all I was ever trying to say is those people wouldnt have as much as we do to pack up and run with

 

[Grosse Gurke]

if you want to go on that topic, I have donated many of my things to less fortunate people

To understand what I am talking about Nate, you would have to donate something more valuable than "things".

 

[Sir Nathan XXI]

ok such as clothes, food, money, gifts for kids at christmas, thats "things" I have dontated, what have you done since you are judging me

 

[hastatus]

Sir Nathan XXI Posted on Apr 9 2003, 05:29 PM
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I wasnt aware of the penalty of leaving, now I see, that why I asked, but Mike what I am trying to say is they dont have much to leave behind so it shouldnt be a big deal.

My knowledge of war is from reading research on effects of, actual biographies of soldier experiences in combat, and news reports. I have done a number of research papers on war, and the after effects on soldiers and civilians of the area, mostly Vietnam though.

Well if you have done all this so-called research then you would 1) be more conscious of people in a war situation and their actions, 2) Be much more humanitarian in your replies. BTW Nate, for your information I am/was a paratrooper in the 173rd Airborne Brigade in Vietnam, the same unit that is now in Northern Iraq and was medivac'd from that country with injuries. I was hospitalized at Letterman Hospital in San Francisco and endured the welcome home for Vietnam Vets. My point is, arm chair experts don't know squat on what they write about because nothing takes the place of actually being there and seeing the real plight of people. If you had done this research then we would not even have seen this topic by you and its question.

 

[Sir Nathan XXI]

my point was I didnt know Sadaam and his regieme were shooting people who left, thinks for the history lesson

 

[Grosse Gurke]

ok such as clothes, food, money, gifts for kids at christmas, thats "things" I have dontated, what have you done since you are judging me

My intention was not to judge you Nate; I think it is great that you donate things to people who are less fortunate than you. But let me ask you one question, what are you really giving up? What is it really costing you? When you give food, does it mean you will not eat tonight? When you give clothes does it mean you will be cold tonight? Probably not, so what is it really costing you? But that is not what I was referring too when I said:

To understand what I am talking about Nate, you would have to donate something more valuable than "things".

I was simply referring to the donation of your time. Many people give things, very few give what I consider more valuable, their time.

 

[hastatus]

Sir Nathan XXI Posted on Apr 9 2003, 06:56 PM
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my point was I didnt know Sadaam and his regieme were shooting people who left, thinks for the history lesson

. I think we all pretty much gathered that, but I find it amazing since this topic has been scattered throughout TV, here in the lounge, in newspapers, radio and word of mouth. Indeed, I'm sure it is even being discussed in schools and universities. Find it amazing your statement above.