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After alot of thought I decided to share this. The pro's just seem to outweigh the cons.
DISCLAIMER:
Like people, a fish going under anesthetic has it's risks. You're responsible for your fishes outcome if you decide to do this.

I've shared this method with a few hobbiests. Canso's 17 1/2" rhom was sedated using this info I shared with him. He performed a small surgery to remove a parasite. He said he kind of panicked when the rhom went out. You might too. Don't worry about it he'll come to. By the way he measured his fish out of the tank at 17.5". I've done that with Titus and he's exactly 15". Anyway, I shared this method with the owner of Cichlid city here in Canada and he used it to ship his fish all over the place. In fact the guy who figured out the dosages is a biologist from peru who exports all over the world. This is what he uses. Personally I've sedated my fish a number of times. Once for surgery and the other times to move my 15" rhom out of the tank during transfers.

Get your supplies
First you can buy clove oil at pretty much any vitamin/herb shop. Even drug stores sell it. It usually comes in 8 ml bottles. If you can get bigger that's great.

Buy some Everclear alcohol. Or whatever brand of grain alcohol. It's 95%- 190 proof. Vodka works as well. It's used to solubolize the oil that's all. Has no effect on the fish.

Heres how you mix the batch.
Mix 10 parts alcohol to 1 part clove oil. I imagine whatever you don't use of the mixture you can store it for later use.

Now here's dosing amounts I use in different circumstances.
*IMPORTANT- The doses mentioned are from the ALREADY mixed clove oil and Alcohol. Do not use the clove oil straight!
If your intention is to:
Take fish out by hand with no chance of being bitten (measurements, surgery's)
1 ml/ gallon of water

Knock fish out for shipping, say for half a day... no chance of flipping out in container
.5 ml/ gallon of water

To mellow out for say 12 hours plus...
start small, say .2 ml/ gal water.

A little further on longer transfers... ie. A move.
The best way is to dose a full 1 ml/gal, wait 10 or so minutes... your fish will look like you killed it. Put him in the container...

If the shipping container has the same amount of dose as the water he came from, you can just add water that's not dosed and dilute his transport water. Wait and see how he responds. You could put him in undosed water theoretically but I would have at least 1/4 of the water dosed so he doesn't have any stress during the trip. It has it's benefits... NO STRESS.

You can dabble with dose amounts... just do not exceed 1ml/gal. That's full knock out dose and if used for shipping it should only be used on big fish. Small fish just need to be mellowed out, not knocked out. In fact .5 ml/gal will knock a fish out. I just would be handling a big rhom at that dose . LOL

Recovery
When he does get back in a tank with fresh water and comes to... I'd let him recoup with the lights off and no traffic for 18-24 hrs. He will be groggy for a bit just leave him he'll come around. The longer he's under the longer he will take to come to.

One more point...
Don't worry about the length of time the fish is under. It's not a case of the fish absorbing more and more with the passing of time. It doesn't work that way. It's the ammonia that kills fish in shipping, not the sedation. So just a heads up on that.

UPDATE: July 3, 2009
I talked with Raul Yalan recently and he said he suggests not sedating for much more than 12 hours. He said some of the fish he shipped that were sedated over 15 hours had some bad side effects with clove oil. Under 12 hours he's never had a problem.

I'll share some pics of a few of my experiences.
ENJOY!

This was a surgery I did to remove some wicked fungus from this caribe
The Surgery Table LOL.
IMG_2476.jpg

Fish sedated in bucket
IMG_2478.jpg

Placed in surgery container containing dosed water
IMG_2480.jpg

This is when I sold my fish to MikeC. I had to get him sedated for a two hour drive. Titus looks dead

IMG_0103.jpg

They're slippery. you may want to use a wet cloth for grip.
IMG_0104.jpg

Mike flipped when he opened the container at our meeting place and saw what a 15" rhom looks like.
IMG_0111.jpg

Here's a pic right after Mike put him in his new tank.
Picture_068.jpg

And.... walla! Next day pic.
Picture_086.jpg
 

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Breaki'n all day...
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Great post Pat. Thanks so much for sharing this info. Iv'e read quite a bit on it when I was researching puffers before deciding on getting one. I guess the same method is used for clipping their teeth when they haven't been worn down properly.

Very informative and detailed. Thanks alot, hopefully I will have another monster one day and this will come in handy.
 

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Thanks again for sharing Pat!

This is very useful info and should be pinned.
 

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The ASSMAN
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Nice Pat. Question....when you dosed the tank.....did you drain it...or does the clove oil dissipate over time? Also....is there any effect on the bacteria in the filters?

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Awesome info!
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Nice Pat. Question....when you dosed the tank.....did you drain it...or does the clove oil dissipate over time? Also....is there any effect on the bacteria in the filters?

Pinned
Pinned!!! WOW... thanks GG and the rest of you guys!

As for your question Jeff...
The oil will not dissipate over time. The water has to be discarded. So I just shut the filters off before I dose. Clove oil is used in holistic circles for it's anti-bacterial properties. Also used in dentistry... well... it used to be used more. It has an unmistakeable odor. You'll recognize it. It's used in some toothache meds.

If I'm putting the fish back in the tank and want to use some of the old water... I just siphon however much I want to save in rubbermaid containers prior to dosing. This also allows you to use less of the sedative as you will be treating less gallons of water.

WARNING...
Clove oil stinks. Don't rub your eyes or take a leak if it's on your hands. I haven't experienced the side effects from it being on my hands but at work one time I put biofreeze gel on a patient and didn't wash before I went and took a whiz... let's just say it's not like wearing silk underwear.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Awesome Awesome Awesome info!

One question, does the size of the P make a difference?
That's a great question.
I think so. I would not use much for smaller ones. I know the neons that were sedated one time never survived. They typically are very sensitive to parameter changes. I would start low. Typically if you can net a P you wont have to sedate too much. I would be cautious. Especially with fish like Mannie's that are known to be poor shippers.
 

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The ASSMAN
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If I'm putting the fish back in the tank and want to use some of the old water... I just siphon however much I want to save in rubbermaid containers prior to dosing. This also allows you to use less of the sedative as you will be treating less gallons of water.
That is a great point and one that people really need to understand. When I had to medicate my rhom in his 180....the meds were very expensive. So I drained the water down to 100 gallons and marked it with tape. That was about as low as I could go and he could still swim comfortably. Two things this did...I used less medication....and it was easy to calculate the 25% required daily water changes. I had to do this for two weeks...so I had two tape marks on the tank...the drain point at 75 gallons and the fill mark at 100 gallons. It made for quick accurate water changes and dosing. Another point is that a 180 gallon tank is only 180 gallons if it has no substrate...and filled to the brim. My tank had nothing in it....so by draining it to a point where I knew the exact gallons of water (less a little for the filter) which allowed me to do more accurate dosing...and save $ in meds.

Of course I pinned this Pat.....it is exactly what we talked about. Very informative and gives the proper warnings if people want to try it out. I figure we will leave this here for awhile...and then move it over to the illness forum and pin it there.
 

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[]D [] []\/[] []D [] []\[] "
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Great topic that is always discussed... pinworthy!
 

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Some good info there. never thought i'd see a thread like this..cool
 

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Well done writeup Pat-

Pat helped me years ago sedate my Big Pacu for a transfer-
I listened to his words and did not have a problem one......Everything worked,just like he said it would...
 

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F**king nice job, thanx !
And I hope you don't mind I just translated it and posted it on the Dutch site ? Of course I've mentioned that I've got it from this forum and that it's original text is yours
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
F**king nice job, thanx !
And I hope you don't mind I just translated it and posted it on the Dutch site ? Of course I've mentioned that I've got it from this forum and that it's original text is yours
No problem man. You might want to insert my latest update. I inserted it in the original post.
 

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F**king nice job, thanx !
And I hope you don't mind I just translated it and posted it on the Dutch site ? Of course I've mentioned that I've got it from this forum and that it's original text is yours
No problem man. You might want to insert my latest update. I inserted it in the original post.
[/quote]

Thanx, I will update immediately. What kind of side effects are we talking about ?

Btw I must say I don't expect we will use the method very often in the Netherlands. Simply because 1) we don't have that much really big piranha's and 2) moving a fish all along the country only means a 4 hour drive
 

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Excellent info, some of the best i've seen.

An outsanding method to move fish, specially when talking about 10"+ pygos.

Thanks bro...
 
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