KrazyCrusader Posted Today, 10:45 AM
QUOTE(hastatus @ Jan 3 2005, 02:49 AM)
A couple things that should be pointed out since YOU brought up the link. 1) There was/is so much contradiction made by that individual over what he was doing from keeping piranas for just 2 years, not knowing what species they are, even how he got his fishes. Last reports I got he has now been keeping and now breeding all species of piranas for over 8 years. So what can anyone believe? What I see is several photo purported to be a fast growth rate from approx. 2-3 inches to what appears to be 5 or 6in. adult in under 8 months if I'm reading his captions correctly.
2) This argument; If Macs were Prolific breeders like it's often said then more members of P-Fury would have bred them. It doesn't matter if any PFURY member is breeding them or not. Or even posting it here. It is a scientific F-A-C-T that S. maculatus and S. spilopleura are prolific year-round breeders and that is well-published. Which brings up my own question, why are you having difficulty believing they are not prolific breeders? Is it because you haven't bred them? or has someone else been drilling it into your head they are the only person on earth breeding S. maculatus?:laugh: C'mon, get real. Spend some money and buy Piranhas Fact and Fiction by John R. Quinn. The article of breeding S. maculatus (misidentified as S. gibbus) is published there. You can also do an internet search and find plenty of wild data on either species and their breeding habits.
Lastly, I'm not interested in getting into a pissing contest with a hobbyist that is still wet behind the ears (they'll remain unnamed here). What I'm telling you here is, just because your knowledge is limited doesn't mean certain facts don't exist in scientific circles or by people that are breeding them and have no interest in being on PFURY or even divulging their information. It is not world news or rocket science contrary to one's popular opinion. There's already too much ego to last beyond a normal lifespan.
If you look over the info I wrote about someone mixing serra's for 8 yrs was wrong. He was actually mixing serra's for over 10 yrs and his name on another popular piranha site is mixed_serras. I am not sure if he also comes to P-Fury or not. I also don't know him so I can only take his word for it. He seems like a knowlegeable fella and pretty honest.
There are no tape measures in the pictures. Just gravel and Piranha's. Even for you Frank it would be very difficult to judge the size of the Piranha's in the tank like that. There is a Jack Daniels cooler in the picture so if you could rotate that sideways it would give you a limited idea of their length. Now I am going to have to go out buy some and drink them then measure them so I have a better idea of how long they are.
If you really look at the 7 month pics, you will see the black tail boarder isn't huge. The size of the tail boarder matches 100% for the age of true maculatus. Or what appears to the best of my knowlege to be.
I was under the impression that the person who purchased these fish was told they were Spilos. That is what he was buying. As time went on it was found out to be fact that they were Macs from you and other experts on the site. Just about anyone without years of experience like you Frank could make the same mistake.
What fish do in the wild can't truly be duplicated 100% in the aquarium. If fish breed in the wild nonstop in a reservoir it doesn't mean they will in your tank. This is a fact often stated but sometimes we don't consider it. This would all be much easier if someone like Hollywood or one of the other breeders would just pick these fish up and breed them. Then we all would know first hand just how easy it was to breed them. Right now we can only speculate.
Frank I haven't been in this hobby very long. You generously answered my questions when I got started about breeding, feeding, sizing of tanks, and many other aspects of this hobby I needed help in and I look up to you for that. I just feel that you guys are a little hard on the particular individual we are talking about. I know that our posts aren't suppose to dwell on this particular individual so I'm going to wrap this up. I love you guys. Lets make our new years resolution to be brothers and hug more?
PS Hollywood-> No Ill Will my friend. I'm not trying to spite you rather trying to point out that they were not a pair. As i've said before I greatly respect your Breeding works. The piranha's I got were shipped to the LFS from Chicago. Is their a chance I could have Piranha's from you That would be Sweet. Your fishes could be mine's great grand daddy
In the world of science ALL WORK is subject to scrutiny from peers and open to criticism if the information is wrong. I'm subject to it day in and day out. Fortunately, I stay within the science arena without stepping out into outerspace without a mask. And that my friend is why I'm good at what I do.
The internet is (as PFURY is) an arena where information is posted and subject to be questioned. Whether it be in the lounge where it is salty or in PSCI where it has to follow a certain decorum. In P-breeding, there is so much information out there. Some of it wrong, some of it taken from books and some it incorrectly interpreted.
A case in point, you mention breeding in reservoirs and whether or not they will be breed in a tank. Your missing the entire picture. A tank is NOT a reservoir. So you have to adapt your tank to fit into the fishes needs. Does S. spilopleura need a reservoir to spawn? No, but the water chemistry in the reservoir is sufficient to meet those needs. Another point here is, once your fish have begun to breed, they will do so until you stop them or something in the tank is no longer viable for them. Cut through the BS and start focusing on key words and much of what I'm telling you now will become clear to you. That is where an analytical mind comes into play. You have to analyze the data and cut away the entraneous information and focus on the key parts of it. One other thing, many of the internet sci breeding reports on S. spilopleura are actually S. maculatus. The S. maculatus name is slowly taking hold as well as its locality information. Indeed, just a few weeks ago Michel Jegu wrote me and stated he saw a true S. spilopleura in Bogota.
While this might not seem like much, but clear demonstrates how S. spilopleura is actually less available to hobbyists than original thought. S. maculatus is the species more often encountered in the hobby and few are actually wild caught. The only way to know for certain is through dissection and of course the honesty of dealers if they reveal their source. Majority will not as they fear it will impact their sales.
Lastly to get back to the statement in bold above. Here is what I look at when dealing with an individual that has gone from keeping piranas for just 2 years, breeding one species for about the same amount of time, to suddenly coming up with other species supposedly bred, but nothing to substantiate it other than "their word". I do take people word on their accomplishment, but I also can smell a rat or someone that is blowing smoke. Many times I see OPEFE information being pasted in discussions throughout PFURY, sometimes the person comprehends what I wrote, more often they are taking it out of context and not comprehending what was written. I could easily dissect what this person writes and show you how out of touch they are in what they are reading. But it serves no purpose and it gives this person more ego publicity. I'd rather focus on PFURY and what I'm here to do and that is educate the public correctly on scientific information and not what a 2 year expert breeding 1 species has to say that changes with the wind when it suits them. In my 40 years of examining piranas, I've only bred 1 species, P. nattereri. I never wrote about it, never took photos because it didn't interest me. It still doesn't, but I enjoy seeing the faces and writeups of those that are doing it for the first time. Breeding S. maculatus is a great accomplishment but it is NOT rare. Breeding P. nattereri is a great accomplishment too, but all in all you can find only 3 or 4 people that actively write about it. Same goes with P. cariba and P. nattereri (ternetzi) that have been bred in captivity. None of this was known until I published it years ago. Only today do people want "proof". When the person that bred P. cariba began to surface and write about it my urging, what he got instead was insults and flames. So why bother? I'm not going to bother these people to post in PFURY because there seems to be so much jealousy and ego involved. So instead, I write about it and share their tidbits of info that might help someone else reach that goal.
Presently as you know, I've been working with P. cariba. I'm not ready to release much data on it. No reason why I should as it is not an ego thing. And as I stated in the past, if they breed, I will take photos of the parents and fry, including eggs if possible. But I'm not going to make it a big deal as my intent is to show PFURY members that it can be done. The parent fishes will go to a hobbyist I trust who I know will take good care of them and keep them in breeding condition. And if you haven't figured it out yet, it will be Hollywood or GrosseGurke.
That's all I have to say on this matter and now its time for me to begin my 1 week vacation.
PS: As I stated, I'm going solely by the dates that individual wrote on his photos. If you truly wanted to get to the bottom of things, research a bit deeper on dates. What you find may surprize you .....in other words be a researcher if you really CARE.