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what makes a fish illegal Piranhas, Arowanas, etc

Posted 02 November 2003 - 01:22 AM (#21) User is offline    

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acestro, on Nov 1 2003, 02:29 PM, said:

I'm pretty sure asian aros are illegal in the U.S. even with a chip.  They are not illegal here because they would be a nuisance, it is that CITES ranking.  If you are listed on CITES you are AUTOMATICALLY AN ENDANGERED SPECIES in the U.S. and you can imagine the trouble you get in keeping an endangered species.  I'd agree that most other illegal fish are for dangerous release reasons.

CITES is the only restriction on asian arrowana in the US,

Imports are very closely watched, without proven source they
are illegal, CITIES allows the import and keeping of captive bred endangered
animals, this has long been a loophole for illegal transfer of animals

Asian Arowana are a CITES appendix I listed species, otherwise they are fully
protected from international trade, Microchiped fish have been approved for
trade, No country that has signed the CITES agreement can accept any fish that is
not Chipped and from a known and legitimate source,

CITES has various listings, Appendix I is typicly Endangered species and are
fully protected by all signed countrys, No international trade is allowed without special permit.
Appendix II typically is a species that could be threatend due to international trade,
These animals often have a quota system attached to them to avoid over-harvest
Appendix III are those of special concern and on watch.

This post has been edited by Polypterus: 02 November 2003 - 01:27 AM


Posted 02 November 2003 - 07:22 PM (#22) User is offline    

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wow great info poly

Posted 03 November 2003 - 12:25 AM (#23) User is offline    

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is asian arrow a type of arrow or is there multiple sub-categories under the asian arrow. like how a piranha could be called a pygo but there are 3 recorded types of pygos under the category.

my bad beans, i meant

GO AWAY beans

Posted 03 November 2003 - 12:26 AM (#24) User is offline   piranha45 

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between poly and acestro, you really can't ask for better information sources :brow:

Posted 03 November 2003 - 03:41 PM (#25) User is offline    

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Quote

Imports are very closely watched, without proven source they
are illegal, CITIES allows the import and keeping of captive bred endangered
animals, this has long been a loophole for illegal transfer of animals



Good info. Regarding captive bred CITIES I, I know that's true for Canada, but I'm pretty sure you can't have them in the U.S., even with a chip. Any more info there Poly?

Posted 03 November 2003 - 03:47 PM (#26) User is offline   nitrofish 

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boxer, on Oct 30 2003, 09:47 PM, said:

What makes fishes illegal? The selling of Asian Arowanas in the US, the selling of P's in some states etc.

the goverment
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Posted 03 November 2003 - 10:21 PM (#27) User is offline    

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Maybe I should be more clear on what I mean by Legal as long as Chipped,

First here is a link to CITES, captive breeding and How an Appendix I
can be viewed as a Appendix II
http://www.cites.org.../10/10_16.shtml
(This makes a bit more sense after reading the whole convention)

By a long shot I'm not nessesary saying you can go to your LFS and Pick up
an Asian Arowana, There is a specific permiting process that needs to be done between the seller, the buyer and the US fish and wildlife service,
F2 captive bred fishes can be imported for Aquarium display as long as USFWS
approves the permit for importation

I mined this out of
the August 18th 2003
USFWS
Draft Policy for Enhancement-of-Survival Permits for Foreign
Species Listed Under the Endangered Species Act,

Quote

Asian Bonytongue

    The Asian bonytongue (Scleropages formosus) is a tropical
freshwater fish native to Indonesia, Thailand, and Malaysia, and
islisted as endangered under the ESA and included on Appendix I of
CITES. Although the species was historically harvested for consumption,
its demand for the aquarium pet trade, along with other factors such as
habitat loss, resulted in significant declines throughout its range.
Reclassification of the species under the ESA is not likely due to
continuing concern for its overall status. However, since the greatest
single threat to the species is illegal collection for the pet trade,
captive propagation that results in a controlled legal supply of
specimens could significantly reduce the pressure on wild populations.
Additionally, the breeding of native species in captivity for
commercial

[[Page 49516]]

purposes may, in some cases, facilitate the eventual release to the
wild of a percentage of the progeny from such operations.
    In 1986, efforts began on the development of captive propagation
techniques for the Asian bonytongue. In 1992, the first captive-
breeding facility was registered under the requirements of CITES, and
legal exports began. There are currently 28 registered breeding
facilities in these three countries, reportedly with an annual
production level of around 300,000 fish. Each exported specimen is
marked with a coded microchip to assist law enforcement efforts to help
ensure that only legally produced fish are traded. The CITES
requirement for certifying facilities as bred in captivity is designed
to remove collection pressure on wild populations and ensure that trade
is not detrimental to the survival of the species, but CITES does not
require in-situ conservation projects.
    Since the approval of the first captive-breeding facility, we have
denied several permit applications for the import of captive-bred Asian
bonytongue. As one of the world's largest importers of aquarium fish,
the United States could play a significant role in encouraging
conservation of the Asian bonytongue through the issuance of permits if
we require, as a condition of issuance of an import permit, that the
specimens are bred in captivity and, a program is established to
conserve the species in the wild . Our willingness to consider allowing
import of captive-bred fish under ``enhancement of survival'' permits
could provide an incentive for development of new conservation
programs.



Full text of document can be found here
http://edocket.acces...03/03-20941.htm

I hope that clears up what I mean be Legal.

CITES law as well US Endangered species act can be a bit confusing
makes it harder when you try to explain it quick.

This post has been edited by Polypterus: 03 November 2003 - 10:28 PM


Posted 04 November 2003 - 12:14 PM (#28) User is offline    

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Great info again. However this quote seems to indicate that the U.S. doesn't allow this yet....

Quote

As one of the world's largest importers of aquarium fish,
the United States could play a significant role in encouraging
conservation of the Asian bonytongue through the issuance of permits if
we require, as a condition of issuance of an import permit, that the
specimens are bred in captivity and, a program is established to
conserve the species in the wild


Note: the United States could play a significant role.

I think it takes something like Shedd Aquarium to get a permit in the U.S. Let me know if I'm off on this.

Posted 05 November 2003 - 12:10 AM (#29) User is offline    

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acestro, on Nov 4 2003, 11:51 AM, said:

Great info again. However this quote seems to indicate that the U.S. doesn't allow this yet....

Quote

As one of the world's largest importers of aquarium fish,
the United States could play a significant role in encouraging
conservation of the Asian bonytongue through the issuance of permits if
we require, as a condition of issuance of an import permit, that the
specimens are bred in captivity and, a program is established to
conserve the species in the wild


Note: the United States could play a significant role.

I think it takes something like Shedd Aquarium to get a permit in the U.S. Let me know if I'm off on this.

Basicly yeah, you have to have a damn good reason to have one to get an
Import permit, Many have been Imported already, mostly for research or
exibition in public facilitys, very few are in Private hands

The strict permiting process is in question, and there is some disscussion
about it going on, the above article was a recent example.

Like I said They are not Illegal by anymeans, you just have to go through hoops
in order to obtain one, The USFWS seems to be dead set on the requirement that
captive breeding facilitys for Asian Arowanna return a portion of the stock to the
Wild as part of a restocking programe, Untill this is secure, Importation of them
will continue to be very restrictive,

(Which does not make much sense as No-one really has done an in depth population study yet as to the actual numbers of these fish in the wild, within their very large range, I can understand the potentional threat to wild fishes, but to take
up the position that even F2 generation captives pose a threat to wild fishes is, well, bizzare, these fish cost Thousands of dollars for some types, Hundreds for Others, it's not like buying a 20$ Silver, which are probley much more exploited
and much more in need of protection.)

Posted 05 November 2003 - 03:30 PM (#30) User is offline    

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Interesting details... Seems almost impossible to resolve :sad: (who would release a fish that's hard to propogate and can turn a huge profit?).  :nod:

Posted 15 November 2003 - 05:27 PM (#31) User is offline   Alexraptor 

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:rockon: hey i know, y don't we all chip in and buy ton's of Red's and dump them into streams and such in Calif :cry:
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Posted 17 November 2003 - 06:17 PM (#32) User is offline    

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:ooh: How 'bout not. ;)

Posted 18 November 2003 - 10:29 PM (#33) User is offline    

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acestro, on Nov 5 2003, 03:30 PM, said:

Interesting details... Seems almost impossible to resolve  :sad: (who would release a fish that's hard to propogate and can turn a huge profit?).  :rockon:

My thoughts on Asian arowana,

As far as my opinion goes, they should be Appendix II

I can not see any real reason this fish is Appendix I
in the first place, really there is no clear data showing they
are threatend or endangered at all, most of this is speculation,
not concrete population data, they are making these decisions on
nothing but a guess as to how many really are out there.

With them now being heavily aquacultured, I see no point to restrict their
importation in the US, (seems though this fish is somebodys pet project
in USFWS), I really do not understand their thinking, Thousands of other, more
seriously threatend species are allowed to be imported every year without question.
And these are being directly taken from the wild, rather than being captive
produced as the Arowana are now.

The thinking behind the virtural ban on Asian arowana is really flawed.

Then again I also think It's probly not all that bad, These fish are not for everyone,
Laws like this also can be a good thing if they are applied within reason.
USFWS positon now is just nutty.

Posted 19 November 2003 - 12:22 AM (#34) User is offline   Hottie 

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Quote

really there is no clear data showing they
are threatend or endangered at all, most of this is speculation,
not concrete population data, they are making these decisions on
nothing but a guess as to how many really are out there


What population data is available? Maybe this is a "better safe than sorry" situation with habitat loss?

Posted 22 November 2003 - 02:39 PM (#35) User is offline   Bigkrup444 

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I was just wondering what you have to do to get a permit for a p in N?. And if they are easily gotten?

Posted 01 January 2004 - 11:47 AM (#36) User is offline   Juntau 

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If they breed more asian aros, that would solve then endangered species problem right?

Posted 01 January 2004 - 12:12 PM (#37) User is offline   crazyklown89 

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yeah but see Aros lay up to only about 100 eggs at a time and only like 10 of them survive....not to mention its pretty hard to breed aros in the first place

so theoretically speakin...to bring the species back from endangered list you need every male and female asian aro and BREED them all then try and save as many babies possible.....aros arent like jack dempseys they dont f*ck like crazy

This post has been edited by crazyklown89: 01 January 2004 - 02:01 PM

Drew said:

welcome to cm, we be hard pipe hittin nuccas and we WILL goto work on yo ass if you dis da rules!


acestro, on Feb 28 2005, 09:25 PM, said:

I'm sure if I went in the street and kept punching myself in the balls I could get more than 11 people to watch. What's your point?
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Posted 01 January 2004 - 01:46 PM (#38) User is offline    

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CITES is a nifty tool that truly only regulates trade. Across country borders and across our State's borders. Other laws such as the Lacey Act also cover instances like this. What is funny is once an Endangered species is legally obtained, it can be sold to non-permit holding people, as long as it does not cross state/country lines. So if you live in State A, where it is legal to own the fish, in County A where it is legal to own the fish, inside municipality A where it is legal to own the fish, and you buy the fish from Guy B who sells you the fish, even though you do not have the USDI paperwork, you can legally buy the fish and own it. You can not sell it across a state line nor can you move it across a state line without first obtaining your USDI paperwork. Also you could move the fish across a state line without USDI paperwork, if it was GIVEN away, or placed on loan. ZERO monetary gain can be had, no trading, bartering, etc... . I see issues with this in many states with many animals. Hope that helped...

Posted 02 January 2004 - 02:43 AM (#39) User is offline    

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Errrr thats a hard one..........gutting them and stuffing them with crack?:maaad: That oughtta make them illegal, oh and dont forget to put some stolen diamonds in them too

Posted 02 January 2004 - 03:07 AM (#40) User is offline   Lahot 

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arowanas are mouth brooders. How are most arowanas in the wild collected? from catching one holding babies and chopping it's head off.

Opening the US market to Asian Arowanas could jeapordize the remaining wild ones that are left.

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