[acestro]

I've thought good and bad thoughts and moderate so I thought I could impartially throw this out there...

I see multiple sides to this flowerhorn situation.
From loss of interest in the real species
to more colorful fish
to less pressure on wild populations
to their culls being introduced into the wild in places
yadda yadda yadda...

....there's a lot to discuss that we really have only sporadically done.

I would also hope that any arguments in other threads could link to this thread instead of repeating themselves and derailing good cichlid/flowerhorn discussions.

Your hybrid thoughts?...


(No bashing here, please, I know there have been some strong feelings about this in the past)

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[Poseidon X]

great topic, even as a flowerhorn supporter i believe there are some negative aspects to improper breeding. I will outline these after we get some more feed back out and the measures that the flowerhorn community wants to take to limit these negative aspects.

[acestro]

Cool, I was hoping you'd be amenable to this. I think there's
a bit of confusion about the ethics (the tailless fish, etc.) that
don't apply to all breeders that could be discussed in detail.

It's okay to glorify these guys or say you hate hybrids, feel
free to opinionate!

[piranha45]

flowerhorns have some good points; its not irresponsible fish-- its irresponsible people-- that owe to the dillution of the trimac gene pool. I just am not one for oversized humps.

[Poseidon X]

hmm here is what we need to know before we start:

There are many fish that can hybridize together. This can be achieved with varios cichlids. If you were to breed a trimac with a midas is it a flowerhorn? no its not. The process of making these fish took many years. With very few exception, the only types of flowehorn being sold in any lfs nationwide were bred by a hobbyist in their basement. When this type of breeding is done by hobbyist they sell the entire stock of fry. This dumping is similiar to what almost killed the hobby in asia. Males that are used in breeding are of a quality that is unimaginable as far as the color, markings and shape. People think that the fish they buy for $30 is going to look just like this when that is not the case at all. Its the greedy people who dont love the fish for what they are and only care about the profit that use a fancy name and a picture to sell a fish that will never look anything like the one shown.

To combay this flowehornusa was created, which is an organization of sellers that are held to the highest ethical standards. We are trying to get the message out to people who are intrested in the fish that if they want to save the hassle of being ripped off and disapointed, dont make the mistake of going to counterfeit sellers. We have a list of sellers that are commiting fish fraud on the website.

Generally the practice is to sell fish at a size no smaller then 3". This is because the plum markings on the fish fade as the fish reaches this size. At a young age they all appear like they have AAA grade markings. If the fish doesnt have the marks to the gill plate when its 3" or it doesnt have anything else that stands out about it then its simple not woth growing out.

The flowerhorn is a Feng Shui fish because it represents the power of mountains in its might head. There are various points of the fish that should be present. It has now become the good luck fish for the next period of 20 years because of the increasing rarity of the asian arowana.

In order to isolate the traits that people find desirable ill go through the process that i plan on goign through when i being breeing

After the fry are born they will be put into dark 300 gallon ponds and grown out to a size of .5". At this size ill use jewelers glasses to vent the fish and toss all the females i can identify unless they are spectatuclar.. those extra nices ones will be moved to a seperate tank. All males that are not up to par will be tossed as well. The rest will be grown out another inch and checked again. The process repeats itself untill a group of 10 or fewer specimens is left out of the 2000 that were born. The 10 remaining are now ready to be sold in the $200-500 range depending on the quality. Quality pricing speaks for itself. A fish doesnt cost $1000 because its a rip off price.. it costs that much because out of 10,000 some fry born its the only one that is that nice.

[luva40]

That is a great explanation Pose. Although I haven't shelled out the big bucks for a pure FH, I have 3 3"'ers that I got from lfs that are alright. I will only keep the best one of coarse. I also aquired an 7-8" er for free that has an eye popped due to injury. It was sold to my lfs for $75 and looks like a Golden. I think he is awesome and really interacts with me even if he is a mutt and doesn't develope a huge kok. The personality is what counts with me, even though I plan on ordering a Rainbow Blue Dragon.

Kevin

[sweet lu]

i think they are good if you ahve the money to get one :smile:

but if you cant get one then you have to not like all of the people who have them

weird huh

but i think that there are more pov's then neg's

[crazyklown89]

Hehe, you should've had the "Yea" or "Nay" and "Which one means yes?" options.

I like flowerhorns. I am an ardent supporter of Flowerhorns, even though I have a mutt and not a high grade FH. However, I have to agree with p45. Fh's like mine do dilute the Trimac gene pool thus slowly ebbing out an entire species. To me, all things should be done in moderation. Extremes are bad...extreme heat and extreme cold can hhurt a person and extreme breeding can hurt a population of fish. I know I'm not presenting my view very clearly due to the medicine(non drowsy my ass) but to sum it up I believe that although flowerhorns are a bautiful fish, they should be bred in moderation or rather in periods. Perhaps the first six months of a year FH's are bred and the trimacs and other cichlids used to breed them should be let go into the world to re populate the wild then after this six month period perhaps you can capture some more cichlids and repaeating the cycle...I dunno, that's just me though.

[Poseidon X]

I like dealing with a flowerhorn broker... i would never make a purchase over $100 without one. My experience with online sellers has shown me that you get an extact representation of the fish you are getting. You will receive multiple photos of the fish you are receiving, and if you order first you are likely to get the best.. because you have the first selection. The seller will also tell you about the personality. No need for exageration here, because each fish has its high points.. some are super insanely aggressive but might have less pearls or flowers, while others are more beutiful but calmer. You can decide what you like.

If you want to try breeding on your own, thats fine.. but unless you are in a position were you can actually make something good, plan on keeping them all to yourself and killing the rest.

[74ray]

I can't stand them. I hate hybrids.

[StuartDanger]

flowerhorns are beautiful, but i agree with 74ray i hate hybrids. and i hate huge humps on their heads they look gross and spoil the fish.

[Poseidon X]

saying no to humps is like saying no to muscles. There is plenty of people out there that would rather sit on the couch then go to the gym, that is their personal preference.. but in flowerhorn keeping you only keep stud males.. not the dime a dozen normal males and all nice quality NWs will have humps.. Green Terrors, Midas, Devil, Festae, Dovii, Peacock Bass. Plus is scientifically proven that females prefer fish with the kok head, not to mention other fish will avoid ones with large heads.

[acestro]

Hmmmm.....

I'm not a big fan of hybrids as a rule, to be honest. The hybrid peacock cichlids from malawi (not the peacock bass) are a shame considering the amazing natural kinds.

I don't know about the muscle analogy ! There are plenty of stunning cichlids that do not and can not have a nuchal hump. And scientifically females do go through a process (in some species) of sexual selection that can go to extremes if unchecked (look up "Fisher's Runaway Hypothesis"). Nature kills such extremes and thus peacock tails only get so long, natural nuchal humps can only get so big, etc.

As for what exactly a flowerhorn is, that still seems a bit confusing. Is it the number of these "flowers"? The nuchal hump? The exact mix of species put into this equation? Is there a true breeding line? Isn't some of the 'looks' environmentally produced as opposed to the genes? Also, is there any messing around with hormoned up fish in this? Seems possible.

And what is the big deal with charging a lot for the best of a brood when CA cichlid broods are typically in the hundreds or even thousands? Many people who breed these cichlids are very frustrated at what to do with so many fry anyway!


The best point made is the release of interest in the Asian Aro, hope that keeps up. If that makes enough of a difference, hell, I may even think of getting a FH!

[Poseidon X]

The main thing your looking for with these fish is the shape.. its just like with dog breeds, its the shape that is different... everything else just enhances the shape but the total image is also important.


I went into the pricing. If you searched every corner of the country you couldnt find one Pearls of the Orient that looked like the red on i have, nor could you possibly breed one without investing 1000s of hours and more money then you can imagine. Its just like with asian arowana. FHs do not breed true at all, and it you try to breed two together of the same breed then they turn out awful. Rarity dicates the pricing. Its just like art collecting.

This post has been edited by Poseidon X: 19 January 2004 - 02:15 PM

[acestro]

Sounds kind of random.

There's no crossing back? Also, are their better fry from an impressive male and a healthy female or is it just as likely to get a nice fish from any old combination?

[Poseidon X]

nope basically the best fish are produced from two completle different strains, in breeding decreases the quality drastically and is avoided as much as possible. Even with that.. the flower markings fluctuate drastically, so only 25% of the 50% of males will actually have AAA flowers which are the only FH that are worht paying money for IMO. so right there your down to 25%, not even considering color or head size and body shape. maybe 10% of that 25% will have a large head. Maybe another 10% have wrap tails maybe another 10% have super short round body. Finding one that has all these characterisitcs is like 1 in 1000. Its like saying every human can be like arnold schwarzanager, how often does one come along?

This is why the quality of Zhen Zhous went down hill, which resulted in crossing ZZs with King Kong parrots. This also makes the males sterile. So close to 75% of male kamfa flowerhorn are sterile, so finding a breeder is super rare now, but their average quality is much much higher as they almost all get huge heads.

[acestro]

Interesting..... wrap tails? And what is done with the hybrids that don't cut it?

How many more deformities are seen in these broods (than, say, a wild Trimac brood)? Is it ethical to even try an breed something where you'll have so many deformed fishes?

Also, how can you combine strains if you can't have a strain to begin with? If you can't cross back within one genetic lineage you can never have a strain. What am I missing here? There must be crossing back to create these strains.

[Poseidon X]

you can see that the short body flowerhorns appear exactly like the breeder barred midas that cichlid scene uses, yet non of its children look like it? This shape is a super incredible rarity in nature, so its not a mutation.. nearly a rare shape that has been increased.

[acestro]

Pose, I'm still unclear on most of my questions.
I'm guessing 'wrap tails' is a good thing (tails extending high and low?)
I'm also guessing that there has to be crossing back to create and maintain any strain.
I'd also guess that (and this is normal for any specialty fish) culls are fed to a monster fish or humanely destroyed (still sad! ).
My last guess; there are more deformities with these lineages.

Catch me where I'm wrong. That is interesting where the shape comes from.

[Poseidon X]

wrap tails are tails that completely fold over on top of each other and leave no gap like with normal cichlids. Its good to either have these.. or to have super long streamers.. and i mean really long. But the newer fish have dorsal fins which appear pushed forward and are twice the height. The finage has been drastically changed on many of these fish. To me the gap in fins is sort of one of the ugly parts about non pure cichlids.. just doesnt look very good at all once you have seen the ones with the wrap tails that just look like they should be like that.

Normally farms take the fry and place them in lite saltwater and freeze them to kille them slow and painfully.

Strains are nearly impossible to replicate.. once that particular breeding pair is gone its gone completely. If you look at the little genie pictures at fhusa, you can see that almost everyone is unique. The parents are both flawless in ever regard, so it doesnt matter which of the parents traits they inherit.. So there is alot of variety with those fish. Some strains are more stable then others. Ill post the yellow rainbow dragon im picking up today, to my knowledge only, 1% of all the rainbow dragons that are good enough to sell are inheriting this yellow base color that the father has. I believe the process that Flowerfish uses is to cross a new female that is incredible back to her father.. or grandfather to stabalize a strain, but you cant keep doing this. So its very important to keep the lineage of these fish when breeding.

i already have a couple males to breed and just need a female from completely different strains. When they breed, i have an image in my mind what traits of each fish i want the new fry to inherit. I will only select those fish which have those traits, unless another really stands out to me. So its more like manual standaridization. It is not easy, and takes tons of land and employees to do this. 50,000 fry must be raised to produce maybe 800 fish